From DIY Web Series to Studio-Supported Cinema | "Them That's Not" (Mekhai Lee)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmkMNt7xWiY

Description

In this episode of Film Festival Friends, Brandon Nick sits down with filmmaker Mekhai Lee to talk about his short film Them That’s Not and the leap from DIY web series to studio-supported filmmaking. Mekhai shares how grief and spiritual guidance shaped the film’s origin about a grieving queer woman, which he made for $20k film after winning NewFest x Concord Sound and Scene grant. The conversation also explores the differences between making "popular" work vs "reputable" work and what it means to grow as a Black queer filmmaker in the festival circuit.

And of course, Mekhai's take on 60-second pitch where Teyana Taylor uses a magic time-piece to save Tom Holland's life.

ABOUT OUR GUEST:

Hailing from Charlotte, North Carolina, Mekhai Lee is a Proud graduate of the Drama program at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts. He acted in many professional productions, including Broadway’s “The Color Purple.” He is the writer/director & co-creator of the original web-series entitled For the Boys to much acclaim. He is a member of the Half-Initiative Director Program and is the 2022 Director’s Fellow on HBO’s Succession. Mekhai also wrote and directed an original short film called “Them That’s Not” which premiered at NewfestPride ‘25 Film Festival as part of Concord Originals and Newfest’s Sound and Scene Program, and has since screened at numerous Film Festivals including Chicago International Film Festival, Bushwick Film Festival, Newfest Film Festival and Queer Voices NYC Film Festival. Mekhai participated as Director of new play “NHeaven” by up and coming playwright Keyon Monte. Mekhai is passionate about directing in both the film and theatrical mediums. He is repped by Gersh Agency and Insight Management. 

ABOUT THEM THAT'S NOT: A prison furlough that brings an estranged father and his distant daughter together at their mother's repass.

ABOUT FFF:

Film Festival Friends is a podcast about queer cinema, craft, and culture. Hosted by Brandon Nick. Full show notes and transcript available on our website: www.brandonnick.com/filmfestivalfriends

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TRANSCRIPT

Mekhai Lee: That lesson was kind of like film school for me, making For The Boys and then taking it to Showtime and getting the opportunity to shadow directors on various sets and things like that. Because of that show, made me prepared for doing what I'm doing now. 

Brandon Nick: What's up? Thank you for tuning into another episode of Film Festival Friends.

I'm your host, Brandon Nick. And if you are a filmmaker interested in festivals and indie production, well this is the show for you. So be sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on any of these insightful conversations. Today I'm chatting with my good friend, Mekhai Lee, to talk about his short film, Them That's Not, and his journey from self-produced passion projects to studio supported cinema.

And the conversation starts right now.

Hello friend. Thank you for joining me. How are you doing today? 

Mekhai Lee: Doing pretty well. I'm doing pretty well. Thank you. Thank you. A nice little addition to the room, and with our Black Lives Matter in the back too, as a reminder and a mantra. But I'm doing pretty well.

I'm bringing in, like as we said before, an air of acceptance. So I'm feeling very calm, cool, and collected today. 

Brandon Nick: I love that. I love game shows. one of my favorite game shows is Meredith Viera's 25 Words or Less. So I'm going to ask you to tell me about them. That's not in 25 words or less.

Mekhai Lee: Okay. And here I go. Them that's not is about a deaf woman who comes home to her hearing family and reconnects with her dad. Period. 

Brandon Nick: Sometimes I, yes, and I And you did that in under 20 Sometimes I make the mistake counting syllables. But no, that was great. 

Mekhai Lee: Uh huh. 

Brandon Nick: Thank you for that. Can you tell me what is the origin story of short film? What is the origin story of Them That's Not? 

Mekhai Lee: It's interesting because it actually, the origin story starts in a sort of, more than or less than happier place. I'd lost a family member of mine and when she passed, I had this grant offered to me or like opportunity to apply for this grant offered to me. And I was not gonna do it.

You know, I was like thinking to myself, I'm dealing with grief right now and I'm just not in a place emotionally to sort of work on a project or even apply for something new. And, the person who passed was my grandmother actually. And when she was laying in the hospital bed next to me, I was approached spiritually or like in a dream, I guess.

Like it just felt like in a time or a plane beyond ours where I was sort of given a message of like, she would want you to do this. And it sort of directly came from her, you know, or at least her body, her something. Like it was, I was in between sleep. It kind of sounds woo-woo but that's exactly what happened.

And it was one of those moments where she was very clear about passing this message on, like, use what is happening to you. Utilize this transmutate this into something that could be, helpful for you or, like cathartic in a way. And so I started to work on the story from that place, taking everything sort of my family was going through at that moment and apply it to what the challenge of the grant was, which was to take a song and essentially build a film around that song. Which the song I chose was God Bless the Child by Billie Holiday. That's where the idea sort of stemmed from. And I built it based on the history of the song and other ideas that I was sort of thinking about.

And the deaf aspects sort of came in because I like the idea of being, you know, a queer family, a queer person in a heteronormative family, or being a, a grieving person in a family that's not grieving as much as you are grieving the person that passed. And then also being a deaf person surrounding by hearing people.

And just that sort of disconnect. I thought there was a cool way to like, make all of that work in one. And, I ended up really paying off in a very lucrative way. You know, where it was something that felt very natural. It just flowed out of me. You know, and it wasn't like work to create, of course it was work to create, but it didn't feel that way.

It felt cathartic. It felt healing. So. Yeah. 

Brandon Nick: That's beautiful. And you spoke about, the grant. 'Cause I, my next question was gonna be, how'd you fund the film, which I imagine was the same thing. So can you talk to me a bit about the grant that you were a part of and what that experience has been like for you?

Mekhai Lee: Yeah, it was a great experience overall. I would recommend it to any other filmmaker. It was the Concord and New Fest film festival's Sound and Scene grant, which is essentially a grant where they provide, they choose five songs and they ask applicants to apply with ideas for each of the songs.

You can choose whatever song you only apply with one song. And then they sort of divvy it out by the song choices and essentially interview you once you make it past a few rounds to see, to have you pitch what your idea is essentially. And I was happy and grateful that they chose my idea, along with four other filmmakers who all made really wonderful stuff.

We embarked from there on a 10 month journey of they gave a $20,000 grant. And they were with you every step of the way. The writing, the pre-production, the budgeting, the production, and they were really supportive. We were sending each other videos from set and everything. You get into a cohort with your filmmakers, you become friends with these filmmakers, you're all creating something at the same time.

And then, you premiere it at the end of the year, which ended up being for us June 1st at NewFest Pride. Now I think they've moved it from NewFest Pride to the actual New Fest Film Festival. It was really fun. Like we just had a really great experience. I met some really cool people. People I still speak to.

New Fest has become family because of this grant. Concord has become family because of this grant. So, it's something I would highly recommend to anybody. And I mean, I had the best time doing it and I love the project that came out of it, so. 

Brandon Nick: You did a beautiful job with this, especially considering.

Mekhai Lee: Thank you.

Brandon Nick: This was your first film. I'm like, your first short film and this is not your first project. And I'll touch on that.

But I'm just naming that like, as a, you know, first time filmmaker, not even so much a first time artist, but like, you know, making your first short film, and for it to have such a like, beautiful, even maybe even sad, but like such a beautiful origin story. And to see the outcome of the film is beautiful.

So I just wanted, yeah, if nothing else, I said all that to give you your flowers. Can you talk to me?

Mekhai Lee: I receive that. Thank you. 

Brandon Nick: You're welcome. Can you, talk to me about how you staffed and casted the film? 

Mekhai Lee: Yeah. It was a bit of a journey. So it's funny because speaking of NewFest, we're all friends with each other, especially the Black filmmakers, and I'm a good, friend of Mars Rucker, who was working on a production at Deaf West in LA and was learning sign language, and I knew I wanted to work on a project featuring sign language. And so I reached out to them and I said, Hey, Mars, like, do you know anybody who fits the type of this? Like, do you know anyone who would, you know, play this lead role I'm working on fairly well.

I was only about halfway through the script at the time, but I kind of explained to them what the type was and they named, I think about three or four actors for me, and one of the actors was in the production with Mars. And when I saw Angel's pictures, that's their name. I just knew that Angel seemed exactly right.

And so we all hopped on a Zoom, me, Mars, and Angel and you know, Angel is actually hard of hearing, not completely deaf. So they had, the ability to be on the Zoom with me and I think they had, the Zoom call captioned as well. And I was just speaking about the role and I think Angel wanted to see how I viewed deafness in particular because she didn't wanna be a part of anything where it was considered to be a disability of some sort, you know. Like it really had to be a method of storytelling rather than something that the character was suffering from. 

So that's sort of how Angel and Mars got wrapped in, because Mars is also acting in the film. But also Mars was my, DEI, my, my head of, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. And Mars practically provided every aspect of deaf representation on the set. You know, they connected me to my director of artistic sign language. They connected me to various interpreters and translators, so that we could have an all inclusive set and have intersection between hearing and non-hearing people and thusly queer and non-queer people. I mean, our crew was pretty diverse and I had folks from LA and folks from Mexico and, you know, a, really great assortment of people coming together to make something that, you know, everyone was cared about, you know.

And it had its stressful moments. It was three days and, you know, at the beginning, your first day is always kind of really stressful. You're always dealing with snafus as you said. But by the third day, our final day, we were doing the final scene of the film and there was just this emotive quality pretty much universally on the set.

And people were getting emotional. And I found that a lot of my crew was coming up to me and saying like, you know, I have issues with my own dad, and this is really healing for me. And mind you, they're watching us shoot this and the scene is completely signed. There's no speaking in it. And you don't have captions or subtitles in real life, you know?

So it was cool to watch them react to a scene that they had no idea what the language was that was being said or spoken. 

Brandon Nick: Yeah. 

Mekhai Lee: But they were still having this really visceral reaction to it. So that was the most beautiful part for me because I knew that in that moment that the film probably was gonna work because people were having real real moments on set without knowing what was being said. So, yeah.

Brandon Nick: And I think that really does speak to like what you were saying about like intentional art making, and not just making art, but making intentional art. 

Mekhai Lee: Yeah. 

Brandon Nick: Knowing that you already have skin in the game. From making For The boys, the digital series, the phenomenal For the Boys, the digital series. What was that transition like making, going from a digital series into a short film? As like, from what I'm, from the way that I see it, and you can correct me in your answer if I'm wrong, but coming from like independent filmmaking with a digital series, with For the Boys, to having money and proper resources and support for making a short film. So like, what was that transition like? And who did you need to become in order to make that, in order to make that transition and to make that film?

Mekhai Lee: There's a couple layers to that question. I think in making For the Boys, For the Boys felt pedestrian. And people hate when I call it that, but it just, it's what it felt like. It felt like we were making it with friends, you know? We were making it because we wanted to, because we were bored, because we wanted to see ourselves on television.

There was a multitude of reasons, but we weren't creating from a place of like, we're filmmakers, you know, we're like, we were just interested in creating, you know?

Brandon Nick: Yeah.

Mekhai Lee: I think, the background in storytelling is what really served that. And there was a more of a team-making thing, or team-building thing when it came to For the Boys.

Like that show is truly about community and the community that you cultivate around you in that time of your life, you know? So everything we were going through on and offset we were putting into the show, you know, jokes that we were like inside, jokes that we had with each other ended up becoming For the Boys jokes that people quote to us now.

It was one of those like, like spur of the moment off the cuff, shooting from the hip kind of things. Like we were just like making it for whatever. And for that matter we made For the Boys, I had 20,000 to do Them That's Not. For the Boys have made pretty universally for like 16,000, but we made 10 episodes with that.

So it was, very limited resources. Like we had, we were on a shoestring budget, practically nothing like rubber bands and chewed up gum. 

Brandon Nick: You said 16,000? 

Mekhai Lee: Yeah, 16,000. 16,000, 4,000 less. 

Brandon Nick: That's, yeah, like 1600 an episode. I just did some quick random math. 

Mekhai Lee: Pretty much, exactly. No, that's pretty much exactly what it was. And I mean, a lot of shooting in folks' apartments and Prospect Park. You know, we would just like shoot off the street. I remember one time we needed Syed to work at a restaurant, but we couldn't afford to go into a restaurant, so we just went, found a like brunch spot that was closed that morning and like shot it 20 feet away. So it looked like they worked at the restaurant, but it didn't. We was just like down the block, you know? That's the level of resource we had.

Whereas with Them That's Not, I did have backing, I did have production support. But I also was shooting one film, one location, so I could really invest in the image of the film, the quality of it, you know? So it felt like the most professional set that I ever was in charge of.

And I was lucky to have fallen in love with filmmaking with For the Boys, and done some studying over the years that, you know, I was preparing to make this and then I'm making this and it's the person I had to become was like a leader, but a listener, you know?

And I think I learned a lot of that listening quality from being on set with For the Boys, because it was such a communal, collaborative experience that I think when people think of a director, they think of someone who comes in and barks orders around. But a lot of what it is fielding questions, and sometimes you don't have the answers to those questions.

So you really do have to be a listener to someone with more expertise with lighting or gripping or time management, budget management, you know. And I certainly made mistakes. It's not to say that I did anything completely right, but I know that in order to make the best film I had to be an active listener, you know, with a vision.

You know, that doesn't mean be sort of like loosey goosey about what you want. You have to know what you want. But you have to have a vision and be open to that shifting a bit. You know, that's never going to remain exactly how you saw it.

Which actually makes me think of one time my brilliant Director of Photography, Sade Ndya, I was talking to her on the third day and we were looking at some of the dailies. And I was like, you know, Sade, and mind you, this, I shouldn't have said it this way because, but this has been a mistake I made. I said, you know, Sade, I wrote this film and I pictured it in a way, and how you shot it, it looks nothing like how I pictured it.

And she was like, what? Like what? What do you mean? Like, what, and I was like, no, but I'm saying, and I heard it after I said it. Everybody on the crew started laughing. They was like, wait, is that, do you like the film? And I was like, no, what I'm saying is that I love it. I love it. It's better than what I picture, but only because like you brought something to it that I would've never, I would've never thought of, you know, you've elevated this project in a way that I always dreamed of it being, and you've made that a reality. As I'm watching it, and we're not even hearing it at this point, we're just seeing the pictures. You know, that's what collaboration does. It, it brings a new energy, a new it infuses your work with more possibility, so.

Brandon Nick: Oh yeah, because I was really about to say the exact same thing. You took the word outta my mouth. 

Mekhai Lee: I think with the digital series, you know, For the Boys is a beautiful thing and it has a massive fan base. People love it, you know, but there's an extent to who that show is for, and it affects right. And with Them That's Not, I found that it's opened up a new, a breadth of opportunity that I was never even fully aware of or fully, knowledgeable about how to have access to, you know. 

Brandon Nick: Yeah. 

Mekhai Lee: But now there's, it's a world where people are like, seeing my work and taking it seriously and taking me as an artist seriously, which is a dream and also an affirmative thing. It's like, okay, cool, maybe there is a possibility here that I had not been considering before because I was someone who just wanted to make theater, you know?

Brandon Nick: Yeah.

Mekhai Lee: You know, I'm like. There are opportunities for me to make theater and still be a director in that way, but people are only taking me seriously in that regard because of this latest film, you know?

And it's a different, it's a different muscle because For the Boys as a popular, piece of work. Them That's Not is not popular, it's reputable, it's respected. Yeah. You know? 

Brandon Nick: Like making Miss Honey and specifically putting it in the festival circuit where like, now Miss Honey: the Catsuit has been like my calling card. And I guess in a similar way that like Them That's Not has like become your calling card, even though we both have existing prior existing work. 

Mekhai Lee: Projects.

Brandon Nick: Yeah. Like projects. Yeah. So like the benefits of being in a festival circuit. But I think being in the festival circuit Probably has like, you know. put you and the film and you as the filmmaker in a more pointed direction. 

Mekhai Lee: Yeah. I agree with you on how the festival circuit will position you. Because again, a lot of these institutions are run by non-Black folks, so because they're having these emotional, traumatic responses, they take me serious as a director. And I actually agree with you, I prefer the term intentional because it's intention, what I'm bringing to the fest or what I'm trying to evoke with my art.

But what the fest responds to is like, oh, here's a very serious filmmaker, you know? And I was just at a fest recently and it was interesting for people to meet me and be like, oh, he's fun. Like, we're laughing, we're having a good time. You know, it's just a, it is just a interesting conundrum 'cause they're expecting me to be like this, like poignant, like serious thinker and I'm fully capable of that.

Yeah. Very much an auteur, but, and I'm capable of that because that's where I come from. That's the art I create and that's what I was trained to do. But I also I like drinking as much as the next person. I like to go out, like, I like to be in the community space and some of the films that were there were comedies, which no one was really expecting.

So I really liked meeting funny directors and funny writers and people who like to keep, you know, life light and, unserious, you know? So.

Brandon Nick: What was it like for you to, and I know you spoke about this earlier, but like what was it like to be in the room, like premiering your work in a room? And like at SVA in an audience full of folks for NewFest Pride, especially as folks who have made art in the past?

I think it is so different than like premiering your stuff on like YouTube or Vimeo and then receiving.

Mekhai Lee: It's a different feel. It's completely different.

Brandon Nick: Yeah. So like what was that first screening like for you?

Mekhai Lee: Yeah. A dream come true. It was nerve-wracking and I was glad that everyone was there. That everyone who was there because it was the most perfect community that I could have had around me.

But I was terrified. I was afraid that something wouldn't work or, you know, everyone was asking me after the screening, what did I expect from it? And I expected people to be like, oh, that was good. We're waiting to see your next one. And people were just really supportive about the film. Like just really like in love with it, you know?

And I think it was affirming in that way because I was just scared. I was, I had never seen my own work on a big screen like that, you know? For the Boys again, premiered on YouTube. So we were always watching that at home on little screens. And it's a YouTube show, you know, it's a digital series.

But, to be going to the fest now and well, especially that premiere was like sort of an eyeopener. Like, oh, this is what it feels like to make a movie, you know? And have people sit in community and watch it with you instead of message you about it digitally. This show affected me, this show did this for me. It's like you're getting it in real time with people responding to what you've created.

I've had the experience of people come up to me and tell me about their dads or their family or being hard of hearing and just really feel like they can trust me as a sounding board for their emotion, you know, because of the film.

That has been the best part with the fest. Which is something which is wild because I finished that in May of this year. This is, it's an old project to me, but it's new and every time someone sees it, it becomes new again. You know, it's like... 

Brandon Nick: Oh, wow. What's been your favorite festival moment so far? 

Mekhai Lee: It's gonna have to be Chicago International. But it, and it's not what people think it is, it's not the award, but it really was doing that screening in Chicago. 'Cause our screening was after the award ceremony. So when we went to the screening and it was a sold out, audience, like sold out, venue. But, it was sold out because people had heard that there was an award winner in this block. So then all the tickets got sold. But once we got to that screening, really the best part about it was meeting the other filmmakers. Meeting like, because it was a Black perspectives block, so every other filmmaker was a Black filmmaker.

Brandon Nick: Knowing a lot of, filmmakers and like storytellers, like seldom am I able to actually like experience the work with them in real time. It's like, oh, you know, you've made a thing. Like you've made For the Boys. I watched it For the Boys online when it came out, but like, versus, we are in this same festival together.

We are, like, I'm looking forward to being in the theater with you and you being in the theater with me and us being able to watch it together. I think that is such a beautiful thing.

What was the favorite moment for you to work on? And this could actually be in the production or in the post-production. Or if you have two separate moments, it can be for both. 

Mekhai Lee: It would've, I loved every moment on set. Set is also very stressful, you know, so I think my favorite moment on set was when we wrapped and I felt the community around me still want to be. Because you know, in some sets it's like once people rap, everybody goes home, you clean up, you go home, right?

And I sort of was expecting that, but I remember at one point they were talking about a rap party. And, Mark asked me, you know, Mark is my production designer. He asked me like, oh, do you think you're gonna go? And I said, like, kind of to him like, oh, I don't know, I'm really tired or whatever.

And everybody in the room was like, what? Like, you're not going? Like, you're the director. And I was like, wait, y'all want me there? Like, 'cause you know, sometimes you feel like people's like leader or their boss or something and you don't feel like they want to hang with you. They're working with you, you know, they're, so I was not expecting them to want to also. Participate in that afterwards. And that was very cool. 

But my favorite part probably was splicing that film together. The editing process. Yeah. I have a really good editor. I trust him completely. And he had gone through with the pass and a lot of what he had done, we kept, you know, we shifted other things and he was open to playing around with the order of the story and communicating with me. And you know, you never know when you're making it, if it's gonna be good 'cause you're living with it and you see it every day, you know?

But it was really fun to, to build that out with Cj. Find the story, you know? Yeah. And find what, from the footage that we had, how we were gonna make this film work, you know? That was the best. The best. And I love editing, and I love editing with Cj, so. 

Brandon Nick: I'm speaking in drafts now. Is there a, is or was there a difference for you in terms of how you exercise collaboration? Independently, I mean, I guess in some ways they both can be considered dependent, but like independently For the Boys versus with like, you know, the, festival studio, financial backing, blah, blah, blah, full crew of, Them That's Not? 

Mekhai Lee: That's actually a great question because it, For the Boys completely informed that process.

Having to collaborate so closely with Ellis taught me how to collaborate. And then also the process of building the show out for like Showtime and stuff. Taught me how to engage with the powers that be, that pay for all this, you know?

And so when it came to Them That's Not, Concord was very instrumental in shaping it. And it's not that they were ever gonna force me to do something I didn't wanna do with the film, but they had input. And it gave me good practice at like applying their note while maintaining my vision and then maintaining my integrity. That was really informative. And then collaborating with Sade and CJ and my sound designer, Candace, and everybody... working with Ellis so closely gave me practice for that. Because at the end of the day, I am the director, but like I was not the kind of director that was like my way or the highway, like it taught me how to like, yeah, listen to them, you know, and value their input as like, oh, well, let's try it. I actually haven't seen it that way because oftentimes even if I don't love exactly what they're doing, what they're going for, the collaborative effort of me meeting them there, especially if I don't have an idea, will make something even better, you know?

And it all started from a thought that they had about it, you know, so there are many things that are part of this film that people compliment all the time, and I'm like, that was a Sade idea. Oh, that was a CJ thing. You know what I mean? Like that, that happens all the time. And it's affirming when someone says, oh, I love this, and it's something that I came up with, yeah. But it feels nicer when it's like, oh yeah, you like the candles? That was Sade. Yeah. 

Brandon Nick: 'Cause teamwork really makes the dream work. You know, I come from the school of like, you know, like I have a vision, I don't have all the money, but I do have a lot of I have a lot of audacity, right?

So it's like, I'm oftentimes, like I'm... and I, know this is the case with other filmmakers within, like our circle as well, it's just like we are often wearing multiple hats. Like, and I jokingly say like, you know, we're all quite often, Tyler Perry-ing all of our projects. So we are writing, directing, producing, editing, costume designing.

Mekhai Lee: Especially early on you have to.

Brandon Nick: Was there a mistake that you made that ended up benefiting the film or ended up benefiting the project for you in the, in the outcome? Or like, was there like a, fuck up or like, a oopsie daisy or like, anything like that ended up having a positive payoff??

Mekhai Lee: Yeah. Anytime you shoot, especially with a new team, day one is always everybody figuring each other's vibe out. Kinda like you were saying. You're working with new people, friends who, some of them who've been friends before in a new capacity. And some of the people on my set had been my friends, a lot of them had been, this is the first time I'm meeting you and we're jumping onto a set, you know?

Which is very often what it is on a film set. You know, you meet people that day, you work with them for a week, three weeks, three days. And then that's it. You know, you're always figuring each other out.

That first day and the first day, Sade and I were sort of like figuring out how we maintained our timing, our time management, especially with her getting used to getting acquainted with this camera. She'd never worked with it before. lighting the house, dealing with daylight, you know, new faces, new actors, interpreters on set, sign language on set. We definitely got to a place where by the end of the day, day one, we're rushing, you know? 

Brandon Nick: Yeah. 

Mekhai Lee: And we only had three days in the house. Like it's not even, like I could add a fourth day because quite frankly I couldn't afford it, you know? And the house is booked the next day.

So what ended up happening was that I think I had to cut like three or four scenes from the finish script. Which is wild because looking back I didn't even need those scenes and I ended up cutting more. Once we, there was scenes that I shot that I was like, we wasted two hours shooting this.

I didn't need to shoot this. I don't even need this scene. You know, like I added it because this person requested it, or, you know, Concord wanted the scene in there. And then the scene ended up not even needing to be present. I never heard about it again, because people think that this is needed. And then you watch the film and you're realizing, oh, I didn't even need that moment.

You know? So the scene that needed to be in the movie was the last one. Yeah. 

Brandon Nick: Tea. No, and what was so interesting about what you just said was, and like I, know this is the experience with a lot of projects, but like, I feel this so much more. I feel this is so much more the case in documentary filmmaking, which is like, there's so much footage that ends up on like the cutting room floor. Because I mean, because I actually had a question and you'd already, like, this was like the best segue. What was, you know, what was something that ended up on a cutting room floor? 

Mekhai Lee: Yeah. There was a scene that Concord sort of fought for where Drea's father approaches her at the party, in the middle of the party. So it would've, come like in the middle of the film. And I remember arguing against it in the writing process and, just saying like, it's gonna add pages, add time, hours to the shoot day. And they were like, no, I think we need this moment in the middle where he tries to talk to her and she avoids him just so we can get that he's, she's avoiding him.

And then I was speaking to Ellis, who I share everything writing-wise with. And, I, heard the same thing from him. He was like, I feel like you need a moment in the middle with, Drea and her dad. And I was like, okay. So because that was something that they fought for, I fought to shoot it. And I remember other people on set were saying, you don't need this moment. Like, we can move on. Like it's just an unnecessary moment.

We shot it. Looked great in the editing process. We're watching the whole, like sequence and it just was coming across mad corny to me. Like I was just like, I don't like the scene and I feel like it's just like holding the movie up, you know?

And the movie is already a short. You don't want your short to be crazy long, and you don't want it to feel long. You know? And I liked that there was a pace that sort of happened once the party got going in the film that nothing really stops that until she hears no from her aunt. Like Aunt Carol says, no, I can't give you any money, right.

I liked that and that scene did not add to that, and it just came across kind of corny. And you know what? I honestly could tell Angel probably thought it was corny and was just shooting it because she was like, I think we, you know, you want to get this, but every time she sort of did it, she changed the dialogue up to make it feel more natural to her. And so none of the takes really had continuity and it just. We were forcing it, you know, so we ended up cutting it.

But there was also many things with family members that just didn't say, I had my cousin stop by because I had this moment where these kids run by Angel, and so she looks down at them and then misses what someone signed to her and that ended up not making it in.

Brandon Nick: And that felt like that would be cute to see, but like, I get it.

Mekhai Lee: It was great. And it was great for my cousins to be there too. They were like, Bilal is, it's two of them. They're brothers, but it's my, actually my cousin's sons, and they're like six and eight, I want to say. And everybody was so sweet to them and they're like the cutest kids ever. But they were definitely overwhelmed with all the lights and the cameras. I just don't think they'd ever seen me in that light. Because I'm like their big cousin to them. 

Brandon Nick: Yeah. 

Mekhai Lee: And so usually they're like very vocal and like happy to be around. And they were a little nervous. You could tell. They were like, there's a lot of people here and there's a lot of lights and cameras.

Like, it was just a lot happening to them. So I wanted to keep that so they could see themselves on it, but we had to cut that scene. A lot, ended up like being left out of the film to get the film that we have today, which is crazy. But yeah. 

Brandon Nick: And it is also so like weird that like, it ends up working out that way, right?

It's like you go in, like, I see this project so clear as day, and then like the final export is like wow. There are things that, like, I realized I didn't need to write, I didn't need to shoot, we didn't need to, like, you know, we could have…

Mekhai Lee: Exactly. And you, don't even miss it. You don't even miss those moments. You know, you shoot, you spend so much time shooting it, and then when you're watching the film, you're like, no, this is it. This is exactly the film that was supposed to be made. So, no. Yeah. 

Brandon Nick: And man, you brought this up earlier, so I guess I'll preface this with share, with, share what you can share. Given that, you know this 

Mekhai Lee: Oh, about Showtime and everything. 

Brandon Nick: I do know between us squirrel-friends that, like, there was a transition, you know, there was an Insecure pipeline that had happened of like, For the Boys. 

Mekhai Lee: Yes. I can kind of share everything now, but long story short, we were bought by Showtime and essentially was paying us to write a pilot to make the show like a real like studio supported, Showtime original TV show. Yeah.

So we were in this position where we were writing a pilot based on the characters that we created for the digital series. You know, like it was gonna be For the Boys based on the web series For the Boys, which is a weird but a legality thing. But yeah, we were working on that pilot and that pilot saw so many iterations and there were so many things that I thought were hilarious and dialogue exchanges from old scripts that I missed.

Like, I just like loved like seeing their characters come to life that way, you know? And seeing parts of our friendship exist in the show, but we just had to cut to keep it under 35 pages to keep the story moving the right way, you know? So that was a big lesson in learning how to cut my darlings, and I'm less precious about them now, and I find that the more that I create, that lesson was kind of like film school for me, making For the Boys and then taking it to Showtime and getting the opportunity to shadow directors on various sets and things like that.

Because of that show, made me prepared for doing what I'm doing now. 

Brandon Nick: I'm seeing it, laid out in front of me in real time and I don't know how well landed

Mekhai Lee: in real time

Brandon Nick: it landed on you. But I just love that there, there's something very beautiful, for me about like, knowing that there, you know, that like one of us can, you know, one of us being like, you know, indie Black queer, storytellers, 

Mekhai Lee: yeah. One of us kindred spirits, yeah.

Brandon Nick: You know that there is hope. You went from creating a show that, as you were saying, which is like, you know, we are doing this because we're a bored and we want to make the thing. And then, you know, for whatever had happened between that point and Showtime, you know, the fact that it had gotten picked up and that there was a, you know, that there was a,

Mekhai Lee: A possibility.

Brandon Nick: National, you know, there was a pipeline for that. And to now be on a, what I believe is a budding successful festival tour. I just love what it feels like your artistic career is doing for you, and I'm excited to, see where it goes.

Mekhai Lee: Well, I received that.

Brandon Nick: Yeah. And I'm curious, like, did any of, like, was that, were you aware of that or is this also just landing on you somewhat in real time as well?

Mekhai Lee: It's landing on me in this moment in real time because you never see yourself from other ones, from other people's perspective. But for me, I'm always like, I'm glad it reads that way, because to me, I can fully express that I don't attach myself to outcomes. But it, came from learning the huge disappointment that comes from attaching yourself to outcomes.

Like if you have your, a set goal, and that is the only thing that can happen for, this outcome, and it doesn't happen that way. That's devastating. That can be heartbreaking. You know, it, it feels like a breakup a bit, you know, we have to let something go. Or it can even feel like a divorce, which is more legal and like litigious, like there's contracts and shit, you know, and it gets.

It gets hard, you know. So it, I'm only in this place now where it can probably read as something that is an artistic journey that's worth exploring or worth paying attention to, because I was, I went through the hard part a little bit, you know.

And that's not to say that there's not more hard times coming. It's just to say that. Yeah, it was, tough when it was. So, I received that completely. I'm glad that it reads that way. I'm glad that from your perspective, it can come across like that. And I, pray for a budding festival journey as well, but I'm only open to that idea because I'm not attaching myself to the outcome of what the film can be. It's just like I made something I care about and now I'm trying to make something else. You know.

Brandon Nick: I'm trying to like you when I grow up. 

Mekhai Lee: I receive that. I receive that. I'm trying to be like you too. 

Brandon Nick: Look. I love that. Okay, so I have two more things to close this out.

So I want you to complete this sentence for me. This is actually pretty simple, but it's a fill-in-the-blank.

Mekhai Lee: Okay.

Brandon Nick: Black queer film is... and then what is that for you? Black queer film is... 

Mekhai Lee: Explorative. 

Brandon Nick: Okay. Now I want you to close your eyes. This is an exercise of imagination. So this is a sensory question that I'm about to ask you. So feel free to like, think on it before you respond. But with you saying Black queer film of explorative, What does that word look like? For you, what does that word smell like for you? What does it taste like? What does it sound like? What does it feel like?

Mekhai Lee: I like this. Yeah. 

Brandon Nick: Thank you. What, sensory-wise, what is coming up for you? Like what scene do you see? Like walk me through this world that is building in your mind.

Mekhai Lee: Black queer film is explorative. And what that feels like to me is visually taking paint and throwing it at a canvas, making a kaleidoscope of art, you know. You ever seen those really brilliant artists in those large studios take a paintbrush and dip it in like a bunch of different colors and just splatter it across? Yeah.

So it feels, you know, inventive and innovative are the right words, but it feels like there's no limits to it. You can really do whatever, you know, because no one had locked us in a box yet. They haven't given us any opportunity. So we have all the opportunity, you know, there's so much to do with it.

And then sound wise, like in the sensory landscape, it's like, a symphony. Like, it feels like, what's the term for when, you like taste something and you see colors and stuff like that.

Brandon Nick: Synethesia.

Mekhai Lee: That's what Black queer film feels. Yeah, exactly. And so like, it, feels like when you eat a really good meal or something, or like some really good dessert and you see the colors like come alive in your head. And then there's a Fantasia Disney-esque like symphony behind it, you know, like it feels like anything can really happen.

Brandon Nick: Because I'm seeing, , this beautiful Black queer orchestra in my mind now I'm also seeing on the other side of the stage or like the orchestra's in the, you know, the pit or whatever they're, whatever that's called. And on the stage there's this like, this like Black queer fem and there's like this massive wall, like, or maybe it's actually just fucking the whole space and they're like, I'm just grabbing paint and just like chucking.

Mekhai Lee: Yes.

Brandon Nick: Not even for the sake of destruction, but literally for the sake of like exploration. 'Cause as you were saying it, that is what my mind started.

Mekhai Lee: But that also sounds like it could be, that's cool, because that sounds like it could be a short film. Like you could literally could get like J. Harrison Ghee or something like that?

Brandon Nick: Yeah. 

Mekhai Lee: Instead of conducting a symphony, his paintbrush becomes the conductor's wand. And he's doing this, you know what I mean? And then the paint is just like splattering in time with the music, you know? 

Brandon Nick: It is time for a 60-Second Pitch, a creative sprint designed to exercise your imagination. Here's how it works.

We've got four spin wheels with lead and supporting actors, movie genres and plot devices. I'm gonna spin the wheels and whatever fate hands us, that's your movie. You'll get 30 seconds to ideate, then 60 seconds to pitch your film idea out loud. Let's go.

But we're gonna spin. 

So your lead actor is Teyana Taylor, your supporting actor is Tom Holland, and you are making a suspense slash thriller about a magical wristwatch. 

Mekhai Lee: I'm kind of nervous, but all right. Okay, so Teyana Taylor owns a hair shop or something like that. is doing hair late one night for some girl. The girl leaves late. She's locking up and randomly hears this crash behind the shop, goes outside to see what's going on and there is Tom Hollands like dying body. And he falls and a wrist watch falls off his thing. So she takes the watch basically. And is wanting to like return it, I guess, or like figure out where the watch came from, what it does. But it sends her back into all these different time zones.

And because Tom died in the time zone that she's in, she has to use the watch to basically save his life before he dies, outside of her her store basically. And so she's using the watch to find Tom in different time zones or different time periods. So she goes back to the twenties and she goes to the future and she goes to the old Egyptian queen era and you know, Victorian London era and is finding Tom Holland in all of these spaces. Basically trying to save Tom Holland's life from the watch and from some sort of larger, crazy ass government.

Time up. Okay. Okay. That's what came to mind.

Brandon Nick: No, but that was so inventive.

Mekhai Lee: I'm trying. Okay. I had, I got act one. I got act one, but we gotta figure out what Act two and act three are. But that's the premise. 

Brandon Nick: It's Teyana Taylor having such a wonderful year. 

Mekhai Lee: And it's also a comedy. Yeah, it is. And it's her running. It's her running. That's the trailer. I need to have her sprinting. That's it. And I sold it.

Brandon Nick: You did. Okay, so wait, 

Mekhai Lee: That's a fun game. I wanna do that again. That's fun. 

Brandon Nick: Now that we are out of the pitch, what, would you call it? Granted, you said it's the comedy, but it is actually a horror thriller, but like, what do you call it?

Mekhai Lee: Well, a horror thriller with comedic elements.

Brandon Nick: It's, very Get Out.

Mekhai Lee: Very much that. Yeah. I don't have a title out of time, I guess. Okay. Borrowed time. Maybe, you know, something with time.

Brandon Nick: Flick of the Wrist.

Mekhai Lee: Yeah. Flick of the Wrist is crazy. Flick of the Wrist is actually what I'm gonna call it. Flick of the Wrists.

Brandon Nick: Do you, have anything that you wanna, leave me with, leave the viewers with? Leave anybody with as a, you know a multiple time award-winning filmmaker who is doing all the things?

Mekhai Lee: Keep creating. Thank you Brandon, yes. Keep creating. That's what I wanna leave the audience with. Keep making things, keep making this. We are explorative. Paint. Paint the canvas, you know.