5 Year Journey to the BAFTAs | "Two Black Boys in Paradise" (Dean Atta + Baz Sells)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iswyxfw0cJM

EPISODE DESCRIPTION

In this episode of Film Festival Friends, host Brandon Nick connects with Dean Atta and Baz Sells to talk about their BAFTA-nominated animated short, Two Black Boys in Paradise. They reflect on the five-year journey to bring the evocative stop-motion film to life, and the trust and grace that made their collaboration possible. The conversation digs into Black queer representation, the impact of Moonlight, and the film’s glowing festival reception, before Dean and Baz “announce” their next collab starring Teyana Taylor and Morgan Freeman.

Festival Mentions: Anima Film Festival, BIFA, Hollyshorts, NewFest 37, Out on Film

About our Film Festival Friend, Baz:

Baz is a BIFA nominated, Writer, Director and DoP.

He is the co-founder of One6th Animation Studio alongside producer Ben Jackson. Together, their stop-motion films often explore socially conscious themes, captured with unique perspective and meticulous care to detail.

One6th’s latest work is the BFI backed short, TWO BLACK BOYS IN PARADISE, which to date has been selected at over 60 film festivals worldwide. TBBIP is qualified for both Oscar and BAFTA submission and has won several awards, including The animation Grand Prix at Encounters Film Festival, Best Animated short at Woodstock film festival and is now streaming on Channel 4 (UK) as part of it’s selection by the Iris Prize.

Baz offers a carefully layered and imaginative approach to world building, with a directorial style that deftly shifts between states of nuance and heightened realism.

Having spent the past five years in production on TWO BLACK BOYS IN PARADISE, Baz is now embarking on the development on his debut stop-motion feature film.

About our Film Festival Friend, Dean:

Dean Atta (born 1984) is an award-winning Black British writer based in Ealing, West London. His heartfelt storytelling draws on his Greek Cypriot and Jamaican heritage as well as his queer identity. He writes poetry, fiction, and nonfiction for all ages.

For adults, his memoir, PERSON UNLIMITED: AN ODE TO MY BLACK QUEER BODY, earned praise from Michael Rosen as "wonderfully original."

His young adult novels in verse are THE BLACK FLAMINGO, ONLY ON THE WEEKENDS, and I CAN'T EVEN THINK STRAIGHT.

THE BLACK FLAMINGO won the Stonewall Book Award and was shortlisted for the Carnegie Medal and Jhalak Prize. Malorie Blackman praised the book, saying, "I loved every word."

Dean has also contributed to middle-grade anthologies HAPPY HERE: 10 STORIES FROM BLACK BRITISH AUTHORS & ILLUSTRATORS and the Instant #1 New York Times Bestseller BLACK BOY JOY: 17 STORIES CELEBRATING BLACK BOYHOOD.

For younger readers, AUNTIE’S BANGLES is a moving, lyrical picture book about love and loss, and CONFETTI is a colourful celebration of love and life. Both are illustrated by Alea Marley.

Additionally, Dean is a screenwriter and executive producer of the stop-motion animated short film TWO BLACK BOYS IN PARADISE, which was longlisted for a BAFTA and nominated for a British Independent Film Award.

TWO BLACK BOYS IN PARADISE is adapted from Dean’s poem of the same name from his poetry collection THERE IS (STILL) LOVE HERE.

TWO BLACK BOYS IN PARADISE is available to stream on Channel 4 On Demand in the UK and Ireland.

Transcript:

Brandon Nick: Welcome and thank you for tuning in to Film Festival Friends podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Nick. Today I'm chatting with my friends from across the pond, Dean Atta and Bass Sells, two of the three creative minds behind the evocative BAFTA nominated animated short film, Two Black Boys in Paradise. Join us for an enriching, vulnerable conversation starting now.

thank you both for joining me. I'm here with my festival friends Dean Atta and Baz Sells. How are we feeling today? 

Dean Atta: Good. 

Baz Sells: Doing great, thanks. 

Brandon Nick: And wait. 'cause I see Baz in your window that it's very dark. what time is it where you guys are? 

Baz Sells: Is it 10 to 9 now? 

Brandon Nick: Wow 

Baz Sells: about, well, nearly 9:00 PM. 

Dean Atta: Yeah. Okay. 

Baz Sells: I just taken my glasses off, so it's a bit . 

Dean Atta: It's night time 

Brandon Nick: Yes. Well, thank y'all for, the flexibility and I'm super duper excited to have this conversation. So, before I guess we get into all of the like beautiful things, I want to ask a icebreaker question. And this is, 'cause I, feel like generally there's always the, like, so tell me about your film, but I want to challenge y'all, to describe your film using a color, a sound, and a food.

It can be any combination of the three, but when you think about Two Black Boys in Paradise, describe it as a color, a sound, and a food. 

Baz Sells: Oh my goodness. 

Dean Atta: A blue, splash and an apple.

Brandon Nick: Ooh, blue splash and an apple. Fitting. 

Baz Sells: I'm thinking of all the food that actually appears on our market stools. we've got bread, we've got cheese, which is not the question whatsoever, but it's where my mind is going.

I would say, this is really tough. sound has to be, I'm just gonna say a whisper. 

Brandon Nick: Okay. 

Baz Sells: And for a food, I'm gonna say. Cake because it's very fulfilling. 

Brandon Nick: I love that. 

Dean Atta: You know, it started with a poem. so I wrote a poem inspired by a picture of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and I thought, why can't Black queer people be there?

And that's why I wanted to write a poem where two Black boys were there in Eden. And, our producer, Ben Jackson, saw me reading that poem at an event in Berlin. So his, partner Kai is a friend of mine and introduced me to Ben. And then Ben introduced me to Baz, took the poem to Baz and said, you know, he wanted to make a queer film for a long time, and this poem could be the one to do that.

So yeah, they asked me if I wanted to do a stop motion animation, and I said, sure. Like, I didn't know what I was getting myself in for, or I don't think they knew what they were getting themselves in for

Baz Sells: Fair. 

Dean Atta: Because it took five years to make the film. 

Brandon Nick: How do we arrive at staffing and casting this animated film?

Dean Atta: And with that, I'm gonna hand it over to Baz, our director. 

Baz Sells: Yeah. So it was a very long journey and as Dean says, we definitely didn't understand at the time how long of a journey it would be and how, yeah, involved it would be. to answer your question on casting, that suggestion was from Dean. who knew, our narrator Jordan from the spoken words, poetry scene.

Was it Dean that you first met Jordan? 

Dean Atta: Yeah. Yeah. 

Baz Sells: And, Jordan very much encapsulates, a kind an energy. and a, I think embodies a lot of what we wanted to say. He very much lives, and, acts upon, many of the conversations. Would you say, Dean, 

Dean Atta: that was one of the big things we talked about when we were actually recording the voiceover in Abbey Road Studios here in London, was what does masculinity mean to us as the crew that were working on the film?

So, you know, we stopped the, narration recording. well, Jordan stops it to have this conversation. He'd, he, yeah. Made basically, it was like, if we'd recorded it, it would've been a good podcast because you made us all talk about like, what does masculinity mean to you? 'cause there's a line in the poem that says, you know, masculinity.

Has not been required of them, the two boys in Paradise. Mm-hmm. And I think that line, means different things to different people. And I think everyone brings something of themselves to the story. And I think that's the beautiful thing about having a really big and diverse crew working on the film.

Yeah. Everyone was bringing something of their lived experience and their passion, for storytelling and for, you know, justice and for, you know, love to be, you know, in the world. So I think that was really special. Everyone had found a personal connection, even if it wasn't an obvious one on an identity level, if 

Brandon Nick: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's beautiful. and so, wait, and so I know you said, that it took five years to make this film, which I, in my mind's eye, I can imagine. 'cause I, just know not from like a tangible, visceral level, but from like a practical level, how much, How exhausting and how tedious, stop animation, stop motion animation can be.

so knowing that it took five years be, can you talk me through like what those stages looked like? 

Baz Sells: Yeah, of course. So I think it was about a year of development, on our part. So that was me, Ben, and Dean kind of exchanging, a version of the outline of the film. Yeah. And during that time we were also, looking for funding and we were unsuccessful on two or three occasions I think.

I can't remember now, but, so we put in some applications with our pitch deck. they were ultimately unsuccessful on those funds, but each time it allowed us to refine the pitch deck so it got stronger and stronger. And the creative really Yeah. Was by the time we got to the BFI, who ended up funding the project through something that's called the Short Form Animation Fund, that was probably the point in which we were absolutely ready.

So it was about a year of development and then. After that we kind of worked with the BFI and our executive producer there, Aoife Hayes on the creative, to really refine the ideas and strip back some of the ideas and build upon some of the others. You know, like the sex scene for example, was, built upon in that stage.

so that was probably about six more months because there's certain funding, paperwork around it that has to kind of be cleared. And then we went into pre-production and I think from pre-production in terms of model making and and kind of prop making and puppet making was, and shooting the film I think was three years.

And that kind of crossed over a little bit. So we were, we started building and then when we got enough kind of assets to put it on camera, we started filming whilst the building was taking place. And and then I think it was probably about a year of post-production, not continuously. We kind of, we worked on the edit, then we worked on our music, and then we, kind of revisited it a little later.

but yeah, so all in all five years and it is hard to, it's hard to, com compartmentalize those things because it was such a long, period of time that I think even now, like my memories of it are of memories and you know, especially at a time when we were working so hard and long hours, you know, you're not really got a sense of linear time.

But yeah, that was more or less the timeline. 

Brandon Nick: Awesome. and I, want to talk about more, the actual, materialization of the short later on. mm-hmm. But first, I, I had a question, and I know you said your memory, your memories are kind of like memories of memories. So as best as either of you can remember, 'cause you talked about, the, journey of funding and how the, and I'm, I have a habit of translating or simplifying, and how the habit of, rejection helped you, sharpen the vision of the short.

Do you remember like what this first pitch deck, had that may be no longer exists or like how you shifted from the story A, you know, story version one to like the final version? 

Baz Sells: Shall I, start and you can see if I've missed anything. Yeah, sure. generally speaking, I think in our early version actually, we had a lot of the key parts and a lot of the key moments in the film were written in.

I think maybe our most, challenging scene was probably the market where I think we had more in there than we needed. In our final version that became more stripped back. we were, keen to say as much as we could about the themes that Dean kind of raises in his poem. But in doing so, there was also, I think a, time in which maybe we were trying to say too much, and in the end we kind of leaned into simplify, you know, to simplify it.

which I think made those scenes even more powerful because they were not bogged down by too much, kind of commentary about, you know, things that we wanted to speak about. It was a lot more stripped back. Dean, what's your recollection of, the, say first draft from the last, what would you say are the major points?

Dean Atta: I think you've kind of covered it, like stripping it back and, knowing why we're, what every image means. Like kind of having a kind of collective understanding because I think we pitched in different ideas and some of them meant more to individuals, and so it meant we had to kind of like fully all be on board like, why this is here, what it means, how it translates to an audience who kind of isn't gonna get our explanation.

Is it clear? You know? Yeah. So, you know, in the market, I think that is true. Like we did kind of have lots of different things that could happen to the boys in the market, but we kind of really focused in on, you know, they're holding hands, people look at them, they let go of each other's hands. You know, they're accused of stealing, and then the police are called on them and, and then they stand up for themselves.

But it, it was like there were a lot of other suggestions put in there. Yeah. we can all imagine, you know, the types of things that happened to us as, you know, queer people or black people or, you know, and, so, but it was interesting to throw lots of ideas into the mix and talk about them and talk about like, why we think they were important. 

Brandon Nick: yeah. 

Dean Atta: And, you know, share, you know, sometimes quite difficult, challenging, you know, experiences that we'd had as individuals, like, and just kind of put it out there and say, and that's why, you know, I think that should be in the film, but ultimately, like, you know. I think Baz says it best, like the best idea wins and I think he's really good at that.

So when, you know, an idea is kind of like we are all on board, then those are the ones to keep. And if anyone's like then you know, we kind of have to back off a bit and be like, maybe that idea can go, like that can go in something else that one of us makes like, 

Baz Sells: Yeah, 

Dean Atta: You know, so, and I think it was great having, getting to a point where we could all be behind every single frame in the film.

Mm-hmm. Like, so that development and refining meant we got to have really great conversations. So yeah. Know if we got accepted on our first, you know, try for funding, we might have made a very different film, you know? Yeah. 'cause we've just kind of been like, great, let's just do it. Like before they take the money away.

Yeah. Every time, you know, we, you get, a rejection or kind of like unsuccessful in, in a kind of application for funding, it means you have to interrogate, you know, it's, is this, what we wanna do? Is this how we wanna do it? Yeah. Do we still wanna do this? 

Baz Sells: I remember that feeling. Actually, I remember getting into production once we've been green lit and, you know, the being, being backed by the BFI was an absolutely beautiful experience.

They're, such a massive institution, you know, with a worldwide reputation and, yeah every filmmaker dreams of seeing that BFI ident at the, start of one of their films. But I do remember that having a conversation when we were going into, the say set builds and puppet builds and saying, I'm actually already quite tired.

We've, put so much work into that. . development stage and, you know, obviously leading up to funding, like that's all unfunded, development time that you've put into it. so I think by the time we got to the b, the BFI fund where. The creative had grown and which meant the budget had got bigger as well.

There was a feeling that this really had to be the one because it was maybe the only fund in this country that I know of that would back a film of, this ambition with a, budget that would, you know, would somewhat match it. So there was definitely a feeling like this has to be the one. And luckily the BFI really saw our vision and bought into it and yeah, the rest is history.

Brandon Nick: BFI is amazing. that is, beautiful. and if you, can, can you share what the full budget was? 

Baz Sells: I'm actually under orders not to say it publicly, if that's okay. 

Brandon Nick: No, that is, okay. 

Baz Sells: Yeah, no, I, can say that the, because this is public information, but the BFI funds, covers projects from between I think 30,000, British pounds to 120,000.

Brandon Nick: Dean, you had said something and it triggered a thought in me, knowing how, especially for rather, I'll take a small step back, Dean, was this your first film project? 

Dean Atta: It's the first, stop motion animation, and it's the first film project that I've been involved in that's gone to festivals and, you know, done the whole journey.

Brandon Nick: The whole, show. 

Dean Atta: Yeah. Like I've had other poems adapted for, TV and film. I've had animation students make animations of my poetry and, sometimes without my permission and just like, say, and it's just a they say like, I did this for my project at university. Yeah. can I put it online?

And I'm like, let's see it then. And then I'm like, yeah, let's put it online. And, I've had other things on kind of, national. Television here. but that usually has involved like me performing the poem. So. 

Brandon Nick: Okay. 

Dean Atta: This is very different. Like, I I'm not, you don't hear my voice, you know, it's, it is kind of, yeah.

I, very much give over the poem to this process. Yeah. 'cause I really wanted to see what other creatives were gonna do with it. So. 

Brandon Nick: Yeah. 

Dean Atta: And even though I was an exec producer, like I was more kind of, hands off most of the time. You know, whenever there was a, kind of troubleshooting session, I would be on hand to discuss, but I was only on the actual set once. So it wasn't something that I was like physically doing. I was, very much a moral support for the guys when they needed it. And I, loved that role. 'cause you know, in the meantime, in those five years I wrote three books.

Like, so, you know, I was doing other things. 

Brandon Nick: So, so what I'm hearing is Dean is that girl, what I'm hearing is Dean is that girl. And I love that. And so the reason I ask, and I think my question does still stand, regardless of if this was your first or your 40th, knowing that filmmaking inherently is a conversation of collaboration.

And then I guess throwing in this extra, this extra apple on top of it being like, stop motion animated. What was, the con- rather not the conversation? What was the relationship like building that synergy? And I'm asking you both, but I guess I'll start with you, Dean, because Baz, as I understand, you and Ben are also working together for the studio.

Mm-hmm. So like, what was it for both of you, but again, starting with you Dean, to like to cultivate this shared language? To best make Two Boys in Paradise happen. Like what was that relationship like of, as you were saying, like surrendering to process? 

Dean Atta: I think two words come to mind. One is trust.

Like I trusted them because they had a really clear vision. They'd done amazing storyboarding concept art with work together on Baz's script, you know, and, me and Ben had lots of input on that. But ultimately, Baz had a vision and I, saw that vision and trusted it and saw the passion of both of them.

And I, I just knew that they were gonna do something beautiful, especially once I started seeing the concept art that Sanna, our creative director had done as well. Like, I even, used the concept art for one of my book covers. Like, you recognize the boys under the water there? 

Brandon Nick: Yes. 

Dean Atta: So like, I was fully on board and I was, I couldn't wait to see like how it was all gonna look.

But also from my part, there was a, as well as trust, the other word is kind of like boundaries. I'd had to decide like how involved I wanted to be and how involved they needed me to be. And I actually felt like I, I will wait to be asked to come in and have a chat. I will wait to be invited to the studio.

Like, and I didn't wanna be on the WhatsApp groups, which I heard were very intense. Like there were several departments working on the film and they had a WhatsApp group for each department. 

Brandon Nick: Wow. 

Dean Atta: And I was like, nah, like I'll just, email me if you need me. Like, let's have a Zoom if you want. Yeah.

Like, I don't want like round the clock updates on this film. Like, I just wanna trust you because I know you're gonna do a good job. So that was for me, the best way, to kind of, yeah, hand over, you know, all the kind of like creative control and just kind of be on hand if needed. And then after the film was made, you know.

Going to the festivals. Like I think I, I really loved that. I loved going to represent the film and networking and, kind of making sure people knew about this film. Like that's been really fun for me. and I can be like somewhat objective, like with my like pride for the film, 'cause like I'm not one of the animators I can say, isn't it beautiful?

Didn't they do an amazing job? Isn't this fantastic? And I don't sound like it's my ego, like, 'cause I didn't do that, they did that. 

Baz Sells: Yeah. I have to go, I have to go in the opposite direction. I have to be that person that cannot say any of that. But yeah. I think for me that your trust really does sum it up and kind of, I wanna talk about that from my point of view.

That how, moving that was for me because I was moving into a space here that wasn't, you know, it was unfamiliar territory. And in terms of. You know, I'm, I, don't belong to the groups that represented on screen throughout boys. But equally, Ben and Dean were both initially giving me that trust.

Really, you know, it, meant a lot to me because that, I knew that was not a small act. Yeah. and also just through the conversations we had, I feel like the level of understanding and, kind of, I wanna say I'm, gonna say, Dean, 'cause I know you've used this word before, but grace that was given in our conversations, really meant a lot to me because some of the conversations that we had in the creative process were not easy to have.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. you know, that we, cover some difficult subject matters and. I felt like the great thing about those conversations is that we, I think, quite quickly established a good relationship and trust between us all that made those conversations possible, and it made us, enabled us to explore those themes in a, deep and meaningful way.

It wasn't surface level, it was, you know, Ben and Dean, like very, openly, I'm not saying it was easy, but openly, sharing experiences that they'd had the, you know, deeply personal experiences. Which really gave me, I mean, I already felt a great sense of responsibility to the, subject matter, to Ben and Dean and their stories, but it, just made me even more dead set on making this film as beautiful and as you know, incredible as we possibly could.

Also, for me and Ben, we've been collaborating for maybe 15 plus years, and it was also a process, that very much deepened our friendship because there was a period for maybe the first 10 years of our friendship that I wasn't aware that, you know, Ben was in the closet, that he was gay. And then when Ben comes to speak about.

How he was feeling in, you know, just from a young age, you know, of not being able to express himself truly. I would go back to those conversations and imagine how awkward he must have felt to now we're at this place where we know each other. You know, we're, discovering who we really are, and this is an opportunity for us to make something, you know, really beautiful for screen. So, 

Brandon Nick: Yeah. 

Baz Sells: Yeah. That, that's the real answer. That's the authentic answer to me. 

Brandon Nick: No, that was, beautiful. 'Cause what I heard was, some level of like, all like, yes, the, trust is like obviously the most important, one of the most important factors in collaboration, right? But even in the, like the shared differences, and similarities of the like, and I'm speaking of when I say y'all in this point, I mean you Baz, Dean and, Ben, the shared, like what y'all bring into this, it's really beautiful. And just like the expressions of softness and grace that y'all offer to each other, and I also do think that is very much felt in, in the short. So, again, I thank you for the vulnerability and I also do believe that like, great work comes at the sacrifice of, you know, conflict resolution. And like shedding skin, so that we can be whoever we need to become in order to tell the work.

And I'm saying this as, a person who has like passively been following this short. I think for like, the second run of my film festival circuit. I have a, very close friend of mine named Larry Gene, and I remember Larry Gene had sent me a voice note. I wanna say this is August or September.

I actually think the Voice Note Dean actually might have been longer than the short itself. but, Larry Gene was telling me, and Larry Gene is also a filmmaker. Larry Gene was telling me that they, she was like, you know, I saw this short film, Two Black Boys in Paradise, at, I think it was like Holly Shorts.

I saw it at Holly Shorts and Brandon. Like, I don't, I just need you to see it. I need you like if, you can like buy the, like virtual pass. I just need you to see it. That like, and was just telling me about like. What the film, what the film was about, but also what it did for her. and so I looked up the trailer.

I was like, okay, the fact that you are gushing so passionately about this, I need to look into it. And I was like, oh wow, this really, the trailer alone had just spoke to me. 'Cause I'm like, oh wow, there's an animated short about two gay, two black boys, who love each other. And it's like, how, how rare is that like we get to see ourselves reflected, and again and, get to see ourselves reflected in such imaginative ways.

Like I'm very grateful for all of the live action, Black queer content that exists, but like the beauty of like Two Black Boys in Paradise is that like, it is not live action. I feel like that does something like that does something different to like the spirit and the psyche. So it was like, when I actually got to first see it, I was like, wow, this is transcendent work.

And I say all of that to say thank you both. Thank you Baz for leading such a, beautiful, a beautiful short and thank you Dean for trusting them with this vision. I think y'all collectively, did a wonderful job.

How does y'all approach how to best frame these, the, more difficult themes, namely this, the interaction between the boys and the cop? But then also, I mean, and I want to say this as a separate question 'cause I imagine there's much to talk about around the sex, but like I'm also just keeping that in my mind as well.

'

Cause I'm just like, oh, I don't think I'd ever, like in my life though, I see like a clay penis before that belonged to, like, a Black dude. I watched the short, I'd been telling my, my husband about the short, he is also Black. And the moment I forgot where, we are in the short, he was like, are we gonna see, because I think we can sense that, like they're not, clothed in the boat.

He was like, we finna see some, some clay booty cheeks? And then we see the, he was like, oh, no, clay porn. And we joked, but it was really just like a joke of like, reverence because again, like this is not anything that we thought that we'd see in our lifetime. So again, much flowers to you, but going back to my initial question, how did y'all broach, the ways to best handle the difficult, or more nuanced, elements of the film?

Dean Atta: I'll start, and then you can talk about it kind of more technically Baz. But I think the police stop and search and the sex scene are kind of like mirrors of each other in terms of like, you know, the unwanted touch from the police. And then the very much wanted touch of the of the sex. And so I think that they work so well because of that.

You know, I think, you know, we, definitely, as we say, stripped back to the most, essential moments, and I think they felt very essential. So yeah, on a kind of, how was that done, Baz? Like with the police search, like with just the hands? That was quite interesting, wasn't it? Like, 

Baz Sells: Yeah. 

Dean Atta: How that decision that everything melts away and you just see the hands?

Baz Sells: Yeah, I, when I think about that, I mean, I can first speak to, obviously there were conversations between us and Dean sharing his own personal experience. But I, remember in my research, when we were kind of discussing that aspect of the film, that I watched a video, I think it was somewhere on YouTube and it was, various accounts from young Black men, I think living in London who had been stopped and searched and they were describing how it made them feel. And each one was slightly different, but I felt like the common theme that was running through was isolation and being cut off from one's community or one's friends.

So for me, I, couldn't tell you where that image came from. It did just appear. but it was, I think in hindsight, that scene was very much about focusing on Dula.

And so we know that his, senses, if he stood there, his senses are on the, touch. This is not a scene about the policemen, it's a scene about Dula and how he feels. So for us, it was important to also strip back everything around him so that we can get that heightened sense of how he's feeling.

And then that's where you lean into obviously, sound as well. Everything becomes heightened where the breath, you can feel, you know, you can really hear that, the heartbeat you hear. And so it really becomes a kind of, yeah, a really microscopic moment where you are really honing in on, you know, the, I guess, intimacy of that moment.

And it's not a nice, you know, not necessarily the right word to use, but it is such a tactile moment. And then on, on, the contrary, like with the sex scene, yeah, I tonally that, that again is a very difficult one because, you know, puppets, you know, it's tricky to make intimacy work between puppets for a number of reasons.

Some of them are logistical and technical, but equally because as you say, you, how often do you see, you know, physical intimacy translated through puppets? So, 

Brandon Nick: Yeah. 

Baz Sells: Yeah. I mean, but it was important for us to go there because I think. Showing, that and normalizing. It's like, what? Well, you know, yes, there are technical reasons why that you might not have seen that before, but there are definitely plenty of other reasons why you've not seen that on screen before, which made it even more important that we, you know, we do find a way to do it.

That yes, there are technical limitations, but, the bigger, point there is that actually we need to see that imagery and we need to show it, and we need to sh we need to be proud of it. And I think that's what we try to do. 

Dean Atta: We, needed a bit of encouragement to be, we needed a bit of encouragement to be brave enough to show it that way.

Yeah. So we, there was an earlier version where you were gonna see the boys, you know, the boat rocking rather than see the sex itself. And we were encouraged by our exec at the BFI Aofie Hayes. So she was like, you know, this is an animation, but it's not a children's animation. Yeah. It doesn't have to, you know, shy away.

And I think because I'd, I've written a lot of books for children and young adults and, when sex comes up in my, books for teens, I tend to kind of like, pan away. Like I kind of, you know, it gets to the moment and then leave the rest of the imagination. Becuase I don't want my books banned. And that does happen.

Brandon Nick: It, does. 

Dean Atta: So yeah, so I wasn't sure, and then once we decided to go for it, like it was just about how'd you make it beautiful? 

Brandon Nick: Yeah. 

Dean Atta: And how'd you make the images, you know, just really move people? And the boys look like they're having fun, you know? 

Brandon Nick: Yes. 

Dean Atta: You know, so beautiful moment for me is when they're about to, you know, engage in penetrative sex and they're talking about it, you know, you can see them talking to one another. And it feels like, yes, there's a communication, there's consent. This is a really beautiful, intimate moment. And, just they just. It just is so enjoyable and like, and the climax is just fun.

Like with peacock involved.

Brandon Nick: Love the peacock.

Dean Atta: And every screening we've been at, it gets like a laugh, a gasp, like people just feel so, you know, you can feel how elated people feel in that moment seeing that. And I just think it's been done, so, so perfectly. The fact that it goes into slowmo when they're climaxing, it's just so great.

Like it's my favorite moment in the film, I think, but it's, I'm so glad we really went there once we decided to do so, we really, you know, found the right images that would kind of portray, what was happening without having to get into the technicals, you know, of showing anything in particular.

Like, but you could see they were being intimate and they were having fun, and they were, free in all senses. And I just think that is what we, we need. That's what the film is about. Yeah. And so to not have shown it would've been a great shame. So I'm really grateful, you know, that we, were challenged and encouraged to actually go all the way with that.

Brandon Nick: Mm-hmm.

Dean Atta: Because, I think it's a better film for it. 

Baz Sells: Yeah, it is, for sure. 

Brandon Nick: I agree. And I thank y'all and I thank the person who's suggested and encourage y'all to lean in. And I thank y'all for leaning in because it, it also makes me think, and I think I said this to some degree earlier, but I think in a lot of respects y'all have made something, that I do believe will be the foundation and the blueprint for other, like, projects to come.

And the same way that like, granted these things are, in some ways very ubiquitous to us. But like, I think in the same way that like Moonlight had given folks permission to like, oh, we can tell, you know, queer stories, we can lean into other forms of like Black masculinity. I think Two Black Boys in Paradise would do something very similar.

Did you, did either of you imagine that Two Black Boys in Paradise would take off or do the things that it did? And being in the position that we are in now, Tuesday, November 25th at two different time zones, how are, y'all sitting? And I know this is a loaded question, but like, how are y'all sitting with, the praise and the recognition and of course all of the awards, right?

That, this, black queer film, is getting, and, again, whoever, feels compelled to tap the mic. 

Dean Atta: Well, since you mentioned Moonlight, I think the success of Moonlight really did make me think. Anything was possible for black queer storytelling, you know, when it won all the awards and just the fact of its beauty, the fact of its existence. Like, 

Brandon Nick: yeah, 

Dean Atta: there's so many things about Moonlight that, that kind of stay with me, especially the scene in the water. but also like. How it was lit. And it's really interesting 'cause one of our co-ops, Kevin Paul Lawrence, like he was taught by Barry Jenkins, so, you know, he was thinking about Moonlight when he was kind of lighting our scene with the boys in the boat, in the water.

So I just think, you know, there's a direct connection there from, you know, Barry to our film. And I think that's, the really interesting thing that, you know, without Moonlight, you know, would we have felt this was possible? Would we have, you know, been as bold would, would the funders have seen the potential?

Yeah. You know, so I think if our film is gonna do that for, future, you know, stop motion animators or people wanting to tell black quiz stories, I think that's an amazing thing 

to be that is beautiful. A kind of a Yeah. In terms of like the awards and the recognition, again, because I feel.

You know, it's, really deserved. 'cause everyone worked so hard for so long. Like, and I, just feel so humbled when I am, collecting an award on behalf of us. because I just think on behalf of us, it's so, so many people, like over a hundred people worked on the film. So I don't know. I think we need a hundred awards for one, for each person.

Baz Sells: yeah. We're working on it. 

Dean Atta: Yeah. Daz, how do you feel about it? 

Baz Sells: actually whenever I kind of did reflect on this, my mind goes back to when we were at animatic stage. So we'd put the kind of storyboard together and, you know, it was all kind of moving and we were seeing what we were gonna be getting.

We had a, score on there and some basic sound design. I remember showing it to the crew. And the, there was a kind of small group there and even the animatic moved people to, you know, nearly tears, if not tears. I can't quite remember, but I remember at that stage a few people turning around and saying, this is gonna be.

Really special and then saying it is gonna do really well. You know, this could do really well with awards. And there's a part of me that absolutely loved that because you know, you've got people there that are so passionate about it. But my director's head was saying, okay guys, we've got a hundred-thousand decisions to get right in the actual making of the film before we get there.

Yeah. So I feel like over the five years of making it, I was very much like heads down, but I had such a fire under me to make this, you know, alongside Ben Dean and the rest of the crew, the most incredible film we possibly could. And I feel, 

Brandon Nick: yeah, 

Baz Sells: I feel like now that I'm on the other side of it and I'm able to, you know, we've locked the edit it's sent off.

I'm now really able to enjoy that and I feel the feedback is kind of. Like awards aside, like the awards are lovely because it's nice to know people within the industry, you know, your peers and other filmmakers or film kind of critics, are seeing what you've done. yeah. On a, you know, on a, narrative technical level, that they understand that how important the themes are, and that's really important, and validating.

But I think the feedback that we've had from people at festivals is without doubt the most incredible thing that we could have asked for. That's a quite a long-winded answer that, but, 

Brandon Nick: no, but you answered it. Thank you. as you were just talking about, about, festivals, I was trying to track Dean, how many festivals had we been in together between, the two short films that I had in the festival circuit or having a festival circuit and two black boys.

I, and I didn't realize this, which is so crazy. I didn't realize this until maybe. Out on film that we were both at BFI and I was actually in London, but I was just like, wow. We, I mean, we've been on this journey in some ways and for a while. So I guess my first question, for who maybe Baz but for whoever can answer, as of, again, today, Tuesday, November 25th and two different time zones, how many film festivals do you think y'all have been in?

And if you can share, how much do you think you spent on festival submission fees? 

Dean Atta: Ooh. 

Baz Sells: Ooh, that's a good question. 

Brandon Nick: I think for my short documentary, Miss Honey: the Catsuit I spent, almost as much on festival fees as I did making it, and I think I, that's that short was close to $4,000. 

Baz Sells: In terms of fees, I will say, this 'cause I think I have a rough idea.

I think we're probably about the same as you right now. Maybe about three to 4,000 pounds. I don't think Ben would mind me sharing that. And some of that is, was allowed to be built into the BFI budget. Because they, they allow you a certain amount. To go towards it. But some of it was also, you know, self-funded as well.

And then as Dean says, when we got to a certain kind of stage, we were starting to get more invites or waivers and things like that. So it is been a mix. It is been a mix of kind of strategy, I think. Yeah. 

Dean Atta: I mean, on my part, like spending money came going to festivals like, 'cause that wasn't built into the budget.

Baz Sells: Yeah, yeah. 

Dean Atta: So like traveling to America twice, was expensive. But also getting around the uk 'cause trains in the UK are, extortionate it like just to get on, the train. Yeah, it's not cheap. so that was it. It is cost a lot, but it's, never not been worth it. It's always felt like, okay, once you're there and people are so happy you are there and like, you know, you meet amazing people or you see people that you'd seen at other festivals and you've got your festival friends. Like, it's just so, so nice. 

Brandon Nick: I mean, and if you want like a, cute little humble brag for y'all as well, if you won Also, how many awards have y'all won? Because like y'all may have, y'all might be as of now the most decorated short film that I've, had space with for this podcast so far. So like in some regards, I'm also patting myself on the back just for interviewing y'all.

Baz Sells: I think we're on over 60 festivals as of right now. I think we are on about 16 or 17 awards. Wow. And I have a thing that this is kind of Ben area.

Brandon Nick: Like, it's Dean's modest smile. He, Dean's like, yeah, 

Dean Atta: Well I've got a few of them up here, at home because I've gone to collect quite a few and some, awards.

We've like won three awards at one festival, so we're like, like carrying all these things home it's great. 

Brandon Nick: You like Beyonce at the Grammys? 

Dean Atta: Yeah, exactly like that. We have pictures like that. 

Baz Sells: yeah. 

Dean Atta: But I think our producer Ben was really good at actually asking for fee waivers. I think he got that advice early and did ask for fee waivers for many festival.

Brandon Nick: Oh, I love that. 

Dean Atta: And I think that's really important, for people to know you can do, even if it's not advertised. Like if you make your case and if you ask like, you know, all they can say is no, and that then you're in the same position you started and that's okay. Yeah. But yeah, places did say yes and then some festivals did, you know, invite us to, you know, submit the film.

Ben did so many submissions and I know like Baz and Ben really cared about what we didn't get into as well, but I'm just like, come on, like, we got into so many, festivals. so I think I'd had a bit of kind of practices like a writer. Like I'd done lots of submissions of my poetry, so I love, you know, when something kind of doesn't get, you know, accepted, I'm like, it's been returned to me and I can send it somewhere else.

And I think 'cause with some festivals, you know, they want a, country exclusive or a city exclusive and stuff like that. Yeah. So. It was, you know, ultimately I think we were at all the right festivals in all the right countries and cities, you know, and, the ones we went to were phenomenal. Like I, I had so much fun at Holly Shorts, I had so much fun out on film.

Like, our World Premier was, at an animation festival called Anima in Brussels. Yes. And it was at, they had a special queer night of all queer animations and they had drag queens performing in between all the films. And every filmmaker that was there got to get up and say something about their film.

And it was an 800 strong audience and it was just 

Brandon Nick: Wow!

Dean Atta: Incredible. Like, so as far as world premieres go, it was phenomenal. Our UK premier was here in London at, BFI Flair, which was just, yeah, like a dream of, I think all of ours. Like, and it was, just like, it, definitely lived up to the dream. So, you know, it's been, a real, fantastic festival run.

So, yeah, Baz like, what do the awards feel like as the director? Because most of the awards have your name on them, so like, you are winning these awards. You know, 

Brandon Nick: I love the cross interview that's happening.

Baz Sells: But that's, this is, the thing I, my name might be on it, but like, I know what the production actually looks like, which is, as Dean said, there's over a hundred people.

Obviously not all of those we're, we were still in indie film. It's not a hundred people working all at the same time. Some people gave us a day or two, and some people gave us years. So I, I see all of those people when we win those awards. So it doesn't, you know, I don't feel like, oh yeah, like, well done me and, you know, but, I wanted to touch on some-

Brandon Nick: But it is, well, but it is also well done you. I do, I, hear what you're saying, but it is also well done. You and I do want to, just, you know, give you that moment to like celebrate yourself. It is also, it is well done everybody. All channels went through you, so there's also very much Thank you.

Baz Sells: I appreciate that, but I, yeah, I just wanted to go say something about what Dean said. Like when we get the jury statements, that's, I think that really moves me because sometimes you, you read a, an interpretation of the film that is so in tune with what you intended, and this film is so intentional.

It is so layered and so thought out, and I don't, you know, some people might only watch it once as often as the case with shorts, but I really hope people revisit it because we did put so much care into, you know, almost every pixel on screen it felt like. So for me, the jury statements, you know, do mean a lot. Because this was our first festival, like proper festival run with a film, you have an idea, you, really believe in your film and you send it off to maybe one of the most elite, you know, film festivals out there.

And you hope that it might get picked up at a big festival so that it then, it just snowballs. But what happened with us is exactly what Dean said. We found the exact right home for our film. And then I feel slowly that snowball just rolled and rolled and then it, then we got to where we are today.

So I think, obviously some people are only just now discovering it, but the journey began like we started submitting to festivals maybe in November. Last year and I think our premier was in March, so there was, you know, a four, four month wait. It might have even been longer. So it does feel like it's been a bit of a slow burn, but I feel, I dunno if you agree with this Dean, but it feels to me that might be a reflection of just the way in which the film has been made.

Dean Atta: You know, for me, I had never called myself a filmmaker, so this is a really new experience for me to be able to call myself a filmmaker and like be part of something that's, you know, means a lot to a lot of people. Yeah. that have seen it 

Brandon Nick: Maybe somewhat similarly, just speaking, Moonlight back into the conversation, where like folks will find out, or like the project will have its second wind. I think I could believe a world that, like once, Two Black Boys in Paradise are like done it's festival circle, I don't know what y'all have planned, but I hope in some way, for all of the Black queer folks that I know who have not seen it, because they haven't gone to a film festival yet, if it is accessible to community, I just know that like the people in our community at large Dean, they're like so hungry for work like this and just knowing how, community will be impacted.

So like, I, think I'm saying that to say be prepared for an influx of much more love. I do have a excellent follow up question. 

Baz Sells: Okay, go ahead.

Brandon Nick: I hope it's excellent. I think it's only as excellent as the response. 

Baz Sells: No pressure.

Brandon Nick: This question, does, reveal might reveal a bit. Speaking in draft, 'cause the question just came to me as you were fishing for your answer. I want you to both speak from the other, this is a bit of a therapy question. I want you to speak as if you are your partner talking about what it's been like to work with the other person. So Dean, I want you to speak as if you're Baz talking about what it's been like to work with Dean.

Baz Sells: This is so loaded.

Brandon Nick: And Baz I want you to speak as if you were Dean talking about what it's like to work with Baz. 

Baz Sells: Do you know, all I want to do is do some sort of parody version, of myself and what Dean might think of working with me. Ah, this is... a okay, because we have to then commentate on ourselves, right?

This is a question to essentially self-reflect. Oh, Dean, would you mind going first? 

Dean Atta: Okay. So, I'm you talking about working with me?

Baz Sells: Yeah.

Dean Atta: Okay. So Dean has given a great amount of trust and grace to the process and been on hand to, you know, get on a Zoom and, answer questions and contribute to the film, but also, been a great champion for it now that it's been made.

And I'm really happy that, you know, we got to transform his poem into this animation and, that it's, been so well received. So thanks, Dean. 

Baz Sells: Oh, see, that's so much better than I can do. 

Dean Atta: Well, I was just being nice. Be nice. Don't do a parody.

Baz Sells: Yeah. I would say if Dean were reflecting on me and working with me, I think firstly he would acknowledge that on both, which yeah, actually has, many times before, but acknowledged how much, care and effort has gone into the film. Not just from me, but from Ben and the rest of our crew. I would say that Dean.

If we're speaking really kind of openly, I think would probably recognize growth within me, in terms of my understanding of the spaces that we kind of explore together. And I think, I would like to think that Dean would say that he felt like I always came into our discussions with good intentions and the right motivations would that be fair, Dean? 

Dean Atta: Spot on. 

Brandon Nick: I love that. 

Dean Atta: How much do we owe you for the therapy session, Brandon? 

Brandon Nick: No, that was, those are actually beautiful answers. So, this question is specifically for Dean. So this is a two part question. The first part, I mean, I think both parts are fairly easy. the first part is a fill in the blank.

I'll say the whole sentence and then you can, repeat it with your answer. Black queer film is what?

Dean Atta: Black queer film is transformative. 

Brandon Nick: Awesome. Thank you. Now, I want you to close your eyes, and this is a sensory question. You said Black queer film is transformative. If that word was a scene, what do you see in that scene? What do you feel? What, what do you smell? What do you hear? What do you taste? This is a bit of, you know, this is a question of imagination work. So, as you said, black queer film is transformative. What sensory things are coming to you in this moment? 

Dean Atta: It's like a hug, but with like many, arms.

That kind of just keep reaching and it's becoming, almost enveloping, but in the most wonderful way. So yeah, you feel held and you feel like it's your brothers and sisters and siblings, but also your ancestors, but also the future. And we're in this together. 

Brandon Nick: I love that. Thank you.

Baz Sells: Well, beautiful answer.

Brandon Nick: Yes. 

It's time for 60-second pitch. A creative sprint designed to exercise your imagination. Here's how it works. We've got four spin wheels with lead and supporting actors, movies, genres, and plot devices. I'm gonna spin the wheels and whatever fate hands us, that's your movie. You'll get 30 seconds to ideate, then 60 seconds to pitch your film idea out loud.

Let's go. 

Baz Sells: This could be our second collaboration, Dean.

Dean Atta: Yeah. We can do it together. 

Brandon Nick: So I'm gonna spend the wheel now and it'll show you the results in a second.

Oh, this is an interesting combination. Okay. So your lead actress is Teyana Taylor. Your supporting actor is Morgan Freeman. And this is a sci-fi fantasy about an 8-year-old computer hacker.

Baz Sells: Oh. Oh, wow. Okay. We got as far as Dean, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to do this to you, but you're gonna have to take the lead on this. 

Dean Atta: Okay. 

Brandon Nick: Your 60 seconds begins now. 

Dean Atta: So we have three generations of family who are all computer hackers. Morgan Freeman's the grandfather; Teyana Taylors his daughter. And then the granddaughter, is, the genius hacker who has inherited these skills but also refined them and is now, hacking through time to find, what is she trying to find?

She's trying to find her father and, she is, because her, mom and her grandfather won't tell her who her father is and she is sure if she can hack into the right system, she will find the answers and she will be reunited with her dad. Beacuase she's kind of, yeah, feels like that is really important to her to know who he is.

And, she does, she hacks in and she regrets it because her dad is the very last person you want your dad to be.

Baz Sells: Can I say something? I was originally feeling quite guilt. I was quite feeling quite guilty that I put Dean on the spot then, but then become very glad that he did that because I'm ready to watch that film. 

Brandon Nick: I agree. It, it sounded very amazing and I, and Teyan Taylor has had a wonderful year, so I just know, that this is, a another, film that would just be like a notch on her belt.

I, I want to hold space for if there's anything that y'all want to say before we part ways. 

Baz Sells: I would like to say thanks for this, discussion, because actually it was yeah, unlike any I've ever had before but incredibly insightful and, yeah, really enjoyable. It's been lovely to, to speak on such a deep level about the film and to hear as well from your point of view kind of yeah what you made of it. It's been really special. 

Dean Atta: Yeah. And I, want to thank you for this space. I wanna thank our friend Larry Gene for connecting us and all the festival friends I've made along the way. And I have, you know, I've got to this age. I'm, 41 now, and I, genuinely thought I was like, no new friends.

I was like, but actually no, more friends, please. Like, you know, I've made friends through this film, in the making of it, but I've also made friends traveling around with this film. And I think this is, a real gift to me, the kind of the connections that have been made. And I'm really grateful to Baz for, and Ben, for making that happen.

So thank you so much. 

Brandon Nick: Thank you both for again joining me on, Film Fest Friends. it has been, such a deep honor and a pleasure to hold space with the both of you. And I am just know that like even beyond all of the accolades and everything that I am a very big champion of this film. I will scream it to the mountaintops when it is accessible.

I will make sure that everybody I know sees it because I think this is truly brilliant work. That will, I hope manifesting will, enter the vanguard and the zeitgeist of not only just, great Black queer film, but just like great animated films and as well.